Sunday, November 18, 2007
Alcibiades on love and a chat on vulnerability...
So, here's the story: Phaedrus, a humanist scholar; Pausanias, a sophist; Euriyximachus, a physician; and Aristophanes, a comic playwright; and Socrates, the philosopher are having dinner.
Socrates opens the theme of debate amongst the men, and it is the theme of love. Keep in mind, though, that this is ancient Greece. So, by way of analogy: People get together nowadays, and have heated debates about sex whilst drunk or high or just generally socialising. Back then it was love. And so Socrates poses the question, "What is love?"
And this has several responses.
Phaedrus argues that love is a part of human nature, and it is something beautiful, to be admired. His is the classical notion of romantic love, highly idealised:
"Love is the oldest of all gods, the benefactor of humankind, the inspiration of honor (a man would rather die than appear as a coward in the eyes of his beloved) and the spirit of self-sacrifice."
Pausanias distinguishes between base and noble love, whilst Euriyximachus, the physician sanitises love and gives it a very mechanical spin. Aristophanes reckons that we were split apart by angry gods, and we are wandering around looking for our other half (to which Socrates asks whether one would REALLY want to joined with the 'other half', physically and mentally, inseperably) if we were to find them. Then, finally, Agathon makes a few comments on the essential nature of love, at times agreeing, at times contradicting Phaedrus.
But then, in crashes Alcibiades, perhaps the only one actually IN love (with Socrates), completely drunk, and shares what he feels about the topic. And in it, he encompasses the rage, the desire, the admiration and frustration that no amount of theorising can capture.
"When we hear any other speaker, even very good one, he produces absolutely no effect upon us, or not much, whereas the mere fragments of you and your words, even at second-hand, and however imperfectly repeated, amaze and possess the souls of every man, woman, and child who comes within hearing of them. And if I were not, afraid that you would think me hopelessly drunk, I would have sworn as well as spoken to the influence which they have always had and still have over me. For my heart leaps within me more than that of any Corybantian reveller, and my eyes rain tears when I hear them. And I observe that many others are affected in the same manner. I have heard Pericles and other great orators, and I thought that they spoke well, but I never had any similar feeling; my soul was not stirred by them, nor was I angry at the thought of my own slavish state. But this Marsyas has often brought me to such pass, that I have felt as if I could hardly endure the life which I am leading (this, Socrates, you will admit); and I am conscious that if I did not shut my ears against him, and fly as from the voice of the siren, my fate would be like that of others,-he would transfix me, and I should grow old sitting at his feet. For he makes me confess that I ought not to live as I do, neglecting the wants of my own soul, and busying myself with the concerns of the Athenians; therefore I hold my ears and tear myself away from him. And he is the only person who ever made me ashamed, which you might think not to be in my nature, and there is no one else who does the same. For I know that I cannot answer him or say that I ought not to do as he bids, but when I leave his presence the love of popularity gets the better of me. And therefore I run away and fly from him, and when I see him I am ashamed of what I have confessed to him. Many a time have I wished that he were dead, and yet I know that I should be much more sorry than glad, if he were to die: so that am at my wit's end."
Symposium is just two pages long, but enough to give us something to think about: http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-Greece/plato/plato-symposium.asp
So leading on from that, the topic of cruelty - well... I see an obvious link, anyhow... Getting into the head of Alcibiades (if you read Symposium, you'll understand, I think)
Anyhow, perhaps this conversation does start out on the topic of the causes of cruelty. However, it moves on to show that perhaps, the unfortunate fact is that there is no sincerity in the world, or if there is, it's in very negligible amounts. Here, Fon the undying optimist is shown that her 'leaps of good faith' in people are, in fact, not good things as she would like to believe they are...
fon: why are some people so cruel when they are hurt?
p: cos they are afraid
fon: of?
p: and they need to make themselves feel better
p: afraid of looking vunerable
fon: and what's wrong with looking vulnerable?
p: it's not an attractive atribute in this world
p: look at me
fon: what do you mean?
p: well i am indecisive . . .as u know, that means I have a weakness, which can be expolited, if someone chooses to . . .
p: so out of fear I may try to hurt someone elses feelings to make them feel no better than me
p: hypothetically of course
fon: and you think that is attractive?
p: no I think it is unattractive
fon: Here's what I think: Someone who is vulnerable can be either attractive or unattractive.
p: oooh I see
fon: By being honest, they are attractive
p: ooooh, so that is good for me, now i know why ur in love with me . . .:D
p: haha
fon: By trying to look strong, when they really aren't, they become very unattractive - especially if they do that by being cruel to others
p: i see
fon: What do you think?
p: i think people will always try to appear better than what they are and attack people who aren't - it's human nature
p: it's not a question of attractive or unattractive
p: it's a fact of life
fon: All people?
p: i am very surprised that u have problems - u seem to be sooo . . . strong and assured
p: yes, most people in my experience
fon: Well, I do tend to be quite 'strong and assured' as you put it - but i don't have a problem admitting if i feel weak
p: well . . .be careful who u admit this too
p: if u admit it to the wrong person . . . it can be a very bad thing
fon: I'd rather be honest with everyone... and if somebody wants to abuse that trust, well, what can i say... at least i am not the one living with secrets
p: very noble
fon:is it?
fon: it seems logical to me
p: yes, ur like a prince in a fairytale
fon: by harbouring negative feelings, am i not just making life more difficult for myself?
[after some random banter, a return to the topic]
fon: i value the kind of people who like to find out the truth for themselves
p: very noble
fon: stop saying that!
fon: it's just logical!
p: like i said u live like a olden day knight
p: unfortunately this logic may not serve u soo well in this day and age
fon: if you look at the big picture, it makes more sense to have principles that guide you than live in sordid self-interest!
p: sordid self interest?
p: wow
p: very profound
fon: ok, maybe you are right.... i live in my own fantasy world with principles in it
p: i think people like you, are the type that are usually describes as "taking the high road"
p: do u understand?
fon: high road?
fon: oh shit
p: it means moral high ground
p: unfortunately this is "the road less travelled"
p: haha, wow, I am very philosophical too eh?
fon: so i'm screwed in other words
p: no ur not, as long as u only associate with people on the same road as you
fon: hehe.... well, you get philosophical, talking to someone somewhat bent on philosophy
p: u got me talking in metaphors tonite
p: :D
p: philosphy is good, but don't get caught up in it too much
fon: lol... but there's no fun in associating with moral people
p: ooooh i see, so u want someone different? someone exciting?
p: then ur setting yourself up to for a "big fall"
fon: oh, i've taken that big fall many a times
p: and u'll probably take it many times again I think
fon: it's like bunjee jumping though
fon: you don't really fall, and there's no limit, really, on how many times you can do it
p:yes but u know what happens with bunjee jumping?
fon: what?
p: after u go down u get quite as high as what u originally were, and over time the stress slowly damages ur joints and muscles
p: from the strain
[more banter]
fon: well, let's call it a strength, to be able to be open about weaknesses then!
p: oooh haven't u listened to anything I said
fon: nope, i'm really stubborn
fon: aren't i?
p: i know i know
fon: haha
p: even what u told me can now be used against u
p: if i choose to
fon: yeah, but i trust you
p: don't u understand?
p: u can't trust me, that's the point
fon: but i DO
p: got it?
p: but u can't, what if I turn around and betray ur trust?
fon: I trust everyone until they prove otherwise, and even then, I prefer to give them another chance
fon: so what?
fon: I won't die if you betray my trust
fon: I'll get over it and live another day, and I'll try to understand why you wanted to betray my trust
p: NO!
p: u don't let people make mistakes, cos oneday u lose something more important than what u experienced before
fon: There's nothing wrong with losing things
p: oooh fon fon
But if anyone would like to be encouraging, please defend my argument for trust!! I believe that there is no reason to distrust anyone until they prove that they are really not worth trusting - and that by trusting people, they will, in most cases, live up to that trust. But if you start off not trusting them, you are not giving that person an opportunity to show that they are trustworthy either... My "naive" conclusion: As a general rule, trust people.
This is my own version of rule utilitarianism.
Quick rundown: Utilitarian philosphy: "maximise overall benefits"
This means, in principle, that if I borrow $20 from you, and on my way to return it to you, I see a starving beggar, I should give it to the beggar. And then, I should tell you that the beggar needed it more than you, and therefore, I didn't return your money.
So, there's something wrong with that, no?
Thus, I should extract myself from everyday situations and look at general rules that maximise benefits, instead. So now I have a rule that says, "Always return what you borrow"
Thus, when in doubt, I have a rule to fall back on (thus, rule utilitarianism).
So now I do return you the money, if I live by those principles.
Ok... so in this case, trust. I don't know whether or not to trust you - but because I have a rule that says that the best way to maximize benefit is by trusting people (if you don't trust them, you'll never ask them for anything, and thus, never benefit), now I will trust you. Obviously, this doesn't mean that I ALWAYS have to trust everyone, but at least, now I have a guiding principle. Good, no?
fon @ 9:33 PM link to post * *